full
Unraveling the World Test Championship: Insights with Ben Brettell
Hosts Benny and Mayank engage in an in-depth discourse regarding the World Test Championship (WTC), welcoming back special guest Ben Brettell to lend his insights. The episode's primary focus revolves around the inherent flaws within the WTC's current structure, particularly its contrasting methodology compared to traditional Test rankings. We delve into the implications of such disparities and the overall excitement surrounding the impending Test summer in England, highlighted by the upcoming WTC final featuring Australia and South Africa. In our conversation, we reflect upon the significance of competitive integrity and the necessity for structural evolution within Test cricket to ensure its future relevance. Through this exchange, we aim to enrich our audience's understanding of the nuances and complexities underpinning Test cricket's landscape today.
Takeaways:
- RCB's recent IPL victory is a monumental achievement after 18 years, finally bringing joy to their passionate fanbase.
- The disparity between the ICC Test rankings and the World Test Championship standings raises essential questions about their effectiveness.
- The World Test Championship is critiqued for its complexity. Many fans find it difficult to understand the qualification and ranking systems.
- Australia is favored to win the upcoming WTC final due to their strong form, although South Africa has the potential to cause an upset.
- The current WTC structure faces challenges in ensuring equal opportunities for all teams, particularly those with fewer matches against top-tier opponents.
- There is an ongoing debate regarding the future of Test cricket and potential adaptations, such as four-day Tests and day-night matches, to maintain its relevance.
Link
Test Match Special: Why the World Test Championship should be scrapped
Transcript
Hello and welcome to the Last Wicket.
Speaker A:I'm your host Benny and I'm joined today by my co host Mike.
Speaker A:Hey Mike.
Speaker B:Hello.
Speaker A:And returning for the second time in probably under two months, it's Ben Brettl Ben, welcome back to the show.
Speaker C:Thanks Benny.
Speaker C:Hi Mike.
Speaker A:Before we get to what we were planning to talk about today, Ben, when we had you last, we were talking about the ipl and it's only fair that we reflect on the conclusion of the IPL with a never before seen event.
Speaker A:An event that many people did not expect to see in their lifetime.
Speaker A:At least I did not.
Speaker A:RCB Royal Challengers Bangalore men won the IPL for the first time after what, 18 years of the tournament's history.
Speaker A:This was their first time.
Speaker A:A much storied team, a much memed team, much trolled, but they did it and they played very well.
Speaker A:I was just curious to hear both of your thoughts on it very quickly before we jump into the main discussion.
Speaker C:Yeah, first thing to say is I was really happy that those two teams made the final because I think they were the best two teams in the tournament.
Speaker C:Over the, over the course of the 10 weeks or however long it was, I think they were the two standout teams.
Speaker C:So I think the tournament got the, the final that it deserved.
Speaker C:As a supporter of Punjab, I was obviously disappointed with the result but I think it was a, it was a really good game and I'm very happy for RCB fans and particularly happy for Virat Kohli and to see him lift the, lift the trophy, I think that's, you know, quite, quite fitting given the, the career he's had.
Speaker C:It would have been something, an anomaly if he'd never won it.
Speaker C:So yeah, it's very happy for him, Mike.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think I would agree.
Speaker B:I think I really wanted a new champion because I feel like as, as the IPL goes on it would be really odd if there's only like three teams which keep, keep on winning.
Speaker B:Three, four teams which keep on winning.
Speaker B:So it does, you know, opens up a good, another dimension to it.
Speaker B:You know, we're never sure now who's going to end up winning and there's more and more teams and I think Punjab is, I have a feeling that they should win before the next mega auction and the next big shuffle.
Speaker B:There are a really solid side.
Speaker B:They're led well.
Speaker B:Obviously Ricky, Ponting and Tres, there are a good combination.
Speaker B:So from that perspective definitely feel that they are there and thereabouts.
Speaker B:So hopefully a title for them around the corner.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think RCB in general, it's been interesting.
Speaker B:I've been reading all the reviews and people sharing their perspective and I thought Jared Kimber's perspective was pretty interesting because he's worked with RCB previously and, and he said that they've gone from a somewhat amateur franchise to a more professional franchise.
Speaker B:And it's great to see that that result is finally out there.
Speaker B:From having multiple groups or companies advising them on auction strategies to being a little more organized, having likes of Andy Flower and Dinesh Karthik in the back room.
Speaker B:Obviously that has helped.
Speaker B:And having said all of that, I do think there's a lot of things that clicked unexpectedly for them.
Speaker B:Like Kunal Pandya doesn't take as many wickets as he did.
Speaker B:Bhavnishwar Kumar had not had like the, you know, last four years or so he was okay.
Speaker B:He wasn't bad at the ipl, but he wasn't as good as he was this year.
Speaker B:So a lot of things came together and, and sometimes that's all you need to, to make, you know, such a long campaign successful.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was long overdue, let's just put it that way.
Speaker A:I think for apart from cricketing reasons, I think from just ipl, the brand they, like you mentioned, they did need teams, apart from Mumbai Indians and Chennai Super Kings winning it, and the fact that rcb, which is one of the most followed teams and with a very, very passionate fan base that did not have a trophy, was.
Speaker A:It was not shocking for most of the last 18 years.
Speaker A:But I think the professionalism you ascribe to them, I think played a large part.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A: e face of his franchise since: Speaker A:Well, not, not immediately, but within the first few years he did become essentially the face of the franchise and you could see how much it meant to him.
Speaker A:And it's interesting for how many of these players winning an ipl, how much it means to them.
Speaker A:And you could see that from Dhoni, who's a.
Speaker A:Normally not a super emotional person, but you know, he's always has his heart on his sleeve when it comes to the IPL and Jenna Super Kings.
Speaker A:And it's the same way with Virat and you could see how much it meant to him.
Speaker A:And like Ben alluded to, it's.
Speaker A:It's great that before he's done playing at all professional, you know, levels that he's going to, he will still, he will have that IPL trophy to his name.
Speaker A:So I'm happy for him.
Speaker A:And rcb slightly disappointed for Punjab Kings because as you mentioned, they were well led.
Speaker A:You know they have a great management in Ricky Ponting and co.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So unfortunately when there's a winner, there has to be a loser and in this case it's Punjab Kings.
Speaker A:I do really hope that at least for the sake of Preeti Zinta they do win a trophy and not put through more heartbreaks in the coming years.
Speaker A:But all in all I thought it was a pretty entertaining IPL if you weren't a CSK fan and I think this is good, good for the, the league going forward and.
Speaker A:But now our focus changes to the long form long format and Ben, Test cricket is coming to your corner of the world.
Speaker A:Obviously we're going to have the WTC final followed by the much hyped.
Speaker A:Well, I don't know if it's much hyped but at least much awaited India tour of England.
Speaker A:How's the buzz in England about the big summer coming up?
Speaker C:I think there's, there's always a certain excitement when it comes to the Test summer in, in England, I think, I guess England is slightly peculiar in that Test cricket is still a massive deal over here.
Speaker C:So it's more followed and more watched than the white ball formats, which I think is, is probably unusual.
Speaker C:Aside from maybe Australia.
Speaker C:I think generally white ball cricket seems to have taken over in terms of the kind of fan base of cricket.
Speaker C:So yeah, there's always that kind of frisson of excitement when it comes to the Test summer and it feels like, you know, the Zimbabwe Test was a kind of, you know, a meaningful appetizer to the main event.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think it's, it is a privilege for England to host the World Test Championship as it has done for the last two, three cycles.
Speaker C:I think it's.
Speaker A:This is the third one.
Speaker C:Yeah, this is the third one.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And yeah, it should be an exciting game.
Speaker C:Really, really looking forward to seeing how, how competitive South Africa can be against.
Speaker C:You know, I think everyone would probably agree that Australia are the strongest Test side in the world at the moment.
Speaker C:I think the results during the cycle have borne that out and it's going to be fascinating to see how, how South Africa can, can compete with them and, and what the result is.
Speaker C:And then of course we're, we're straight into as you say, the, the series against India which should be, should be fascinating for, for its own reasons.
Speaker A:Yeah, Mike.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean I think it's an exciting summer So I think we should get into our topic of the day.
Speaker B:So really the, the topic of this podcast was inspired by a blog that Ben wrote where he was critical of the wtc, you know, the JIZA system.
Speaker B:And I thought this is a really good topic to talk about and debate.
Speaker B:And so I guess we'll start with how the test rankings work.
Speaker B:So outside of the wtc, there's a test ranking.
Speaker B:Every, every team has a rank and let's get into that.
Speaker B:So, Ben, why don't you talk about how this, this ranking system works?
Speaker C:Yeah, thanks, Mike.
Speaker C:So the blog that I wrote was, was really prompted by, it was when the news broke that England had risen to number two in the Test rankings.
Speaker C:But obviously England is nowhere in the table in the World Test Championship table.
Speaker C:And there are lots of talk about why that disparity exists.
Speaker C:And the answer is that the two systems work in a completely different way.
Speaker C:So in terms of the rankings, there's points attached to each Test match.
Speaker C:There's also extra points for winning a series.
Speaker C:So a series win counts as like an extra test match.
Speaker C:1.
Speaker C:And I think the main difference in how the two systems work is that the ICC Test rankings take into account the strength of the opposition.
Speaker C:So win against a stronger opponent counts for more than a win against a weaker opponent.
Speaker C:And, and I'm not saying that that is how the WTC should be decided, but that's kind of the key, the key difference in the way that the rankings work.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I think that's, you know, it's a very fair way to look at it.
Speaker B:You know, obviously you get rewarded better for when you're playing a better team, series wins get, get extra points.
Speaker B:And then the other thing they have is if, although they consider matches in the last three years, if it's a game that was more than two years ago, the weightage is 50% to that result.
Speaker B:So overall it is a pretty solid system.
Speaker B:If we talk about the WTC and the point system there, one difference is, of course, every Test match carries the same number of points, so the opposition strength is actually not considered.
Speaker B:There's also no additional points for a series win.
Speaker B:And then to add to that, we obviously have the nuance of, hey, the number of matches being played by each team varies quite a bit.
Speaker B:So we see, you know, the big three in India, England, Australia playing a lot more Test matches both home and away as compared to some teams like South Africa and New Zealand.
Speaker B:So obviously this, this is probably the biggest criticism of this particular system, which I think it's Completely fair.
Speaker B:Now, are we going to ever have a perfect system where everybody plays everybody for the same number of games?
Speaker B:That's, you know, with the longer format, it's.
Speaker B:It's unfortunately not as easy to make it like a World cup, but.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it is.
Speaker B:It is clear that the World Test Championship works slightly differently than the Test ranking, and that can be confusing for both fans and.
Speaker B:As well as, you know, cricketers themselves.
Speaker B:I guess my.
Speaker B:My first thought about this is, you know, let's talk about the world.
Speaker B:Just World Test Championship.
Speaker B:And I guess, Ben, to your argument, why do you think just having the Test ranking system, how would that be sufficient?
Speaker C:I think, you know, first.
Speaker C:First thing to say is I get why the World Test Championship was introduced.
Speaker C:You know, it's an attempt to give context and meaning to test cricket, which is kind of exclusively bilateral series.
Speaker C:And I really understand the motivations behind that.
Speaker C:And I'm.
Speaker C:I'm not really necessarily saying that we shouldn't have some form of World Test Championship, but, like, I don't think anybody really looks at the rankings too much.
Speaker C:So, like, I really get why the World Test Championship is there, but.
Speaker C:But I just think in its current format, it's fundamentally flawed, and I don't think it does the job of providing the context that the ICC wanted it to.
Speaker C:I think that there were kind of.
Speaker C:I was thinking about this earlier, and I think there were kind of three main questions to be answered here, and I think in its current guise, the World Test Championship kind of fails on.
Speaker C:On all of them.
Speaker C:The first one is kind of just, is it effective?
Speaker C:Like, does it do the job of deciding which is the best team over the cycle?
Speaker C:And I'd say, given what you alluded to earlier, of different.
Speaker C:Different teams playing different amounts of cricket against different opposition, it doesn't really do that job.
Speaker C:You know, South Africa have only played 10, 12 Tests in this cycle, and, you know, they've beaten West Indies, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan to reach the final.
Speaker C:And I think you'd probably struggle to even find a South African who thinks that they're one of the top two Test teams in the world.
Speaker C:I'm not sure.
Speaker C:So I'm not sure it's doing its job in terms of being effective and kind of sorting out the two best teams over the cycle.
Speaker C:I think the second one is, is it easy to understand?
Speaker C:And that's my main problem with it.
Speaker C:It's like, you can't.
Speaker C:You look at the league table and you can't work out which teams are doing well.
Speaker C:You can't work out what you'd need to do to make the final, you'd need a calculator, you might need a spreadsheet, you might need a data scientist to work it out.
Speaker C:A few months before the end of the cycle, it was virtually impossible to look at all the permutations and work out what was going on.
Speaker C:Compare that with say a soccer league table where you get three points for a win and one for a draw and everyone understands where they are.
Speaker C:I think as a fan it's just really hard to follow.
Speaker C:And then the final thing I wanted to say was just kind of, is it meaningful?
Speaker C:So this one's really debatable.
Speaker C:Like I'm sure Australia and South Africa are delighted to be in the final and they'd be really happy to win it.
Speaker C:But for example, if you ask the average England or Australia fan, would they rather win the World Test Championship or win the Ashes?
Speaker C:I suspect most of them would say the Ashes.
Speaker C:And likewise with, you know, the Border Kavaska Trophy, you know, you guys are India fans.
Speaker C:Would you rather win that or would you rather win the, the World Test Championship?
Speaker A:Well, it would take time though, right?
Speaker A:We don't have, the WTC does not have the history that either the Ashes or the Borg of Oscar Trophy has.
Speaker A:So for it to be relevant, it needs time.
Speaker A:It will probably take anywhere between five to 10 cycles for it to be considered prestigious for any team.
Speaker A:I don't think the WTC will ever replace like winning.
Speaker A:The WTC will never replace winning the feeling of winning the Ashes or the Border Kavaska Trophy for players from those countries like India, Australia and England.
Speaker A:But for other countries like South Africa, it could be like the crowning achievement of their careers.
Speaker A:Like if they, if South Africa wins this even without like the history that's going to be built up eventually.
Speaker A:The fact that I don't, I don't know, do they have a trophy that they, it's in on par with the Ashes or Barda Gavaska Trophy for them?
Speaker A:They probably don't.
Speaker C:Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker C:Yeah, and it's a good point about the, the history and that it needs time to build up that kind of kudos, if you like.
Speaker C:So I think that's, that is a, that is a really valid point.
Speaker C:And also to your point, again, there are, there are lots of nations where they don't have those kind of marquee series against one particular opponent.
Speaker C:Like I think for New Zealand, when they won it, that was, it was a really important part of that team's.
Speaker C:Legacy, Right?
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:And I think too that as imperfect as the WTC is, you know, the format and the way it's been structured, there is room for so much improvement.
Speaker A:But I think having it at all is better than not having it.
Speaker A:And I think it gives the players something to play for rather than just go through series after series where outside of the, the Big Three, none of the other teams, especially in this era when they are competing with the One Day Internationals and the T20 Internationals, you can already see players are, would rather retire from international cricket than having to put aside playing for the franchises in all these multiple franchise leagues all over the world and devoting their time entirely to their country and national commitments.
Speaker A:It gives them something to play for, incentivize them and motivate them to play Test cricket for their country.
Speaker A:So I really feel like it's, it's as imperfect as it is, it's better than nothing and hopefully they'll make changes, much needed changes, to make this more really equal.
Speaker A:Equal for all the teams that are taking part in it.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that's a really good point and I don't think it, you know, I'm not saying we should totally scrap the idea of the World Test Championship.
Speaker C:Just I think at the moment they've kind of fudged a league system over the top of a structure which has lots of idiosyncrasy and kind of historical elements.
Speaker C:I think my point really is that if you want to have this kind of league table which works, which isn't a bad idea, you're going to need to change the structure of Test cricket to some extent to make that work.
Speaker C:And I think maybe for other reasons to keep Test cricket relevant, we might need to make some changes anyway.
Speaker C:So I think it's a good, it's a good opportunity to just kind of take a look at the whole thing and kind of reimagine it for, for the modern day, if you like.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think so just gather my thoughts on why I think the WTC should work is first, actually it's not got to do with Test cricket or WTC at all.
Speaker B:I personally think the marquee event in cricket right now is the One Day World Cup.
Speaker B:You know, no team is considered any other tournament bigger than the One Day World Cup.
Speaker B:Sure they might be like the Ashes, which some English supporters or Aussie supporters might say, but that's very specific to their, their teams in general.
Speaker B:The One Day World cup is still the marquee event and just the way The ODI game is going, I don't see that existing past like maybe two decades at a maximum.
Speaker B:So with that said, like, unless we do something to change the ODI game, keep it interesting, just the fact that there's a shorter white ball version which has way more eyeballs, which is way more, you know, way less time and then there's red ball version, I think that format is going to go away eventually.
Speaker B:Like as much as I would love for it to stay, I just don't see it exist past 15 to 20 years.
Speaker B:And so I think there is space for that next marquee event, which is probably where I see the WTC come in.
Speaker B:And to the point we already discussed.
Speaker B:Obviously it's going to take time for that legacy, that history to be built, that rivalry to be built and of course there's things to change.
Speaker B:But I think that's number one reason from my thoughts, my standpoint, that WWTC should exist.
Speaker B:The other piece which I think is really interesting is they don't have any, they have points for each game.
Speaker B:What that means is even if India is up 20 in a three match series, or in this case actually recently, New Zealand were up to zero against India at home.
Speaker B:But they had everything to play for in that 3 3rd game.
Speaker B:They, they knew that, okay, yep, the series is won, we will get the points for a series win, but we still need to make sure we maximize the points from this specific game and from India standpoint because they were still trying to qualify for the final, trying to save those points and get at least something from that series.
Speaker B:So it has changed the way teams look at draws.
Speaker B:And this cycle as an example, we've had only four draws in all the tests that have happened and all four were rain affected actually.
Speaker B:So there was no game which had no rain impacts which did not have a result.
Speaker B:And I think it's just making Test cricket a little more exciting.
Speaker B:Teams are taking risks with really, you know, bowler friendly wickets.
Speaker B:India, you know, in the last two, three years post Covid, I would say had really spin friendly wickets.
Speaker B:But, but if you look at, even outside the Sydney Test that India played that had the greenest wicket ever for Sydney, everybody from Alan Border and Mike Hussey were talking about how they've never seen a green pitch at Sydney.
Speaker B:And so you're seeing these countries take a few more risks and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker B:Which is kind of why this time when I say this time I mean this WTC cycle home teams have actually not had that good of A record as compared to the first two cycles.
Speaker B:So I think in, in my mind, like the, the, the, I guess side effect of trying to win more games is teams are taking more chances with the pitches that are being created and it's making cricket more exciting, which, which I think is not something anybody will complain about.
Speaker A:The only thing is it makes Test cricket.
Speaker A:It may sound like I'm playing both sides here, but I'm essentially devil's advocate.
Speaker A:Um, it makes Test cricket exciting in the context of those series, you know, just a standalone contest because you know, all these countries are being very strategic about maximizing their team's chances of qualifying to the final.
Speaker A:And that exists only because in its current format, in its current structure, you know, every team doesn't have the equal amount of games.
Speaker A:Some teams have like weaker teams, mostly weaker opposition in that cycle.
Speaker A:And so whoever qualifies to the final, there is no way to say they justifiably earned it.
Speaker A:Because if they won by defeating all the weaker teams and making it to the final versus a team that had played against essentially the top three or four and didn't qualify, does that make the team that qualified to the final better than the team that did not qualify because they played against stronger opposition?
Speaker A:And I think that's, to Ben's point, it's, it doesn't make that a fair assessment of them being the World Test champion as compared to a 50 over World cup or a T20 over T20 World cup where all these teams get to play against each other, they're in groups where they play the same number of games and by the time they make it to the final they, they've really been tested.
Speaker A:And in its current format, the WTC doesn't do that.
Speaker A:We do get the satisfaction of crowning like a quote unquote Test champion, but, and it produces some exciting games because teams not really take, just go for the win rather than settling for a draw.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day, like, especially like when New Zealand won World Test Championship, I know there were a lot of talk about, well, they did win the final, but they're not the best, best team in the world.
Speaker A:So we're like the, what is point of it all, you know, but that's.
Speaker B:Always going to be the case with sports rivalries, right?
Speaker B:It's, it's never, it's never going to be apple to apple comparison.
Speaker B:And, and I think that somewhat exists even with the one day World cup or the T20 World cup, you know, for that matter.
Speaker B:Obviously the last T20 World cup was different.
Speaker B:India won all games so that probably wasn't, isn't a good example.
Speaker B: But you go back to: Speaker B:Were they really the best side?
Speaker B:I, I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't think they were the best ODI team in the world at that point.
Speaker B:They, they found a team which did well in home conditions and won.
Speaker B: say the same about England in: Speaker B:You know, they were not the most consistent side through that World Cup.
Speaker B:They managed to qualify and then of course they did really well in, in, in, in the semis.
Speaker B:The final was so close that you know, it's hard to say who's, who was the better team that day.
Speaker B:So you, you will get these, get these outcomes irrespective anyways.
Speaker B:And, and that is what makes sports so much fun.
Speaker B: nd was the better side in the: Speaker B:And I don't think any English fan can say with complete confidence that hey, that's, that's not true.
Speaker C:So let's not go there.
Speaker B: I mean even in: Speaker B:So you were always going to have these things.
Speaker B:And actually this is pretty close to my, the last point I was about to make which is, you know we have traditionally leagues like the English Premier Leagues where it's a long, obviously it's a, it's different from you know, a T20 World cup or a one day World cup but it's a long year long league where every team plays each other twice.
Speaker B:We have 38 games that, that are played out and then there's no final, no semis, nothing.
Speaker B:You just end with 38 games.
Speaker B:Whoever ends up at, at the top is the champion.
Speaker B:And even then there's always debate saying oh they were not the best team, they, they won for whatever goal difference, it came down to one game.
Speaker B:So there will always be those scenarios.
Speaker B:But if you really want a fair winner in terms of hey, the best team should win, that's probably the format to go.
Speaker B:But the reality of it is, and I think obviously ICC realizes this too, that having finals and having knockoff games just is better marketing for the sport.
Speaker B:It brings in more viewers, it brings in more excitement which is going to be my final reason why the WTC should still be there.
Speaker B:Whether it should be a one game final that of course, you know, we can we can probably debate, but, but I think for those reasons I do think that WTC still has space going forward.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Ben, were you going to say something?
Speaker C:I was, I was going to agree really.
Speaker C:And I think, you know, having a final is, is, is really good and it's, you know, I, I do think maybe it should be a best of three rather than a, rather than a one off game.
Speaker C:But you know, I like, I like the final.
Speaker C:I think the, you know, the, the main question here seems to be kind of, you know, how do we, how do we evolve?
Speaker C:Either evolve the World Test Championship or evolve Test Cricket, the game that sits underneath it, to, to try and get that World Test Championship closer in terms of identifying the two best teams, closer in terms of can everyone understand it?
Speaker C:And closer in terms of kind of, you know, is it really meaningful and does everyone really want to win it?
Speaker C:And I think the, you know, Ben Stokes has, has been, has said, you know, he doesn't understand it and nobody cares about it, which is kind of a, you know, it's a bit harsh.
Speaker C:But when you've got the captain of one of the stronger teams in the world saying that, I think it kind of highlights that there's something wrong with it.
Speaker C:And you know, the fact that the finals next week and I can still buy a ticket even for day one says, says quite a lot.
Speaker C:You know, if that was the, the soccer World cup final, you would not be able to buy a ticket.
Speaker C:So yeah, I get as early as early days for, for the World Test Championship, but I, I think, you know, with the useful conversation to have is kind of, it's how do we evolve the, the championship and, or the sport that underlies it to, to make it better.
Speaker A:I think it's also hamstrung by the fact that Test cricket is so unique among all sports in that this is a, a five day game played in different conditions across the world by a select few, but across the world and then it's competing with two other formats which I think arguably are more popular among spectators rather than players and arguably among players too.
Speaker A:So if you want to make the WTC more fair, it needs more time or let's put it this way, like in a domestic league, right?
Speaker A:Like let's say either the Runji Trophy or an English county cricket.
Speaker A:You have a few months where all these teams, even if, if they're, they're either divided into, into these tables or they get to play each other, even if you take other, other countries into account.
Speaker A:And so by the time they make it to the last round or the final.
Speaker A:Well, the first class system does not have a final.
Speaker A:Correct Ben?
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But in India in the Rangy Trophy we do have a final.
Speaker A:And so between these two kind of systems you have teams that are playing over the course of a few months coming to the end where the top ranked or the top, the teams with the most points eventually clash in, you know, semi, final, final.
Speaker A:I think that's the closest what wtc if it was to be really relevant and really fair, that's the system that they would go have to go with.
Speaker A:But they're hamstrung by the fact that you can't.
Speaker A:Nobody's going to compromise on one day cricket and T20 cricket to make that happen.
Speaker A:I think there's just too much all at once for all of these teams and this limited number of resources.
Speaker A:And to make the WTC more fair you need to allow more time.
Speaker A:And right now I don't think international cricket has the time between the ODIs, T20 internationals and the multiple franchise T20 tournaments up there.
Speaker A:So it just starting off itself.
Speaker A:I just don't know what can realistically be done to improve.
Speaker C:I suppose there's a question of could, could you have a longer cycle to, to give enough room in the schedule for, for everyone to play everyone, which.
Speaker A:I think A four year cycle.
Speaker C:Yeah, maybe a four year cycle.
Speaker C:Because I think, you know, if you're going to make it fair, you really need everyone to play everyone for the same number of games.
Speaker A:Whether that's in and probably home and away too, right?
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah, ideally, yeah.
Speaker C:But then that's, that's really loads of games.
Speaker C:To make that happen you'd have to have two, two divisions which is something that we, we can, we can maybe talk about.
Speaker C:But you know, is, is there room in the schedule for everyone to play everyone given the amount of franchise and white ball cricket that happens?
Speaker C:Probably not at the moment.
Speaker C:And then you've got the issue of kind of can smaller cricket boards afford to to host that number of tests when tests are loss making for them?
Speaker C:Yeah, you know that that would potentially need to be subsidized through a, a different split of, of ICC revenue across different cricket boards, which is another issue.
Speaker C:Then then you've got the other issue which, you know, for, for totally understandable reasons, India and Pakistan aren't going to play each other at the moment.
Speaker C:So what do you do about about that the points that would would be accrued during those games, how do you split those?
Speaker C:And, and then you, you've Also got an issue of kind of, if you say everyone's going to play everyone and it's a, it's a three match series, what do you do about the kind of historically longer series?
Speaker C:You know, nobody wants to see a three match Ashes series or a three match border Kavaska Trophy.
Speaker C:So you know, there's a, there's a few, there's a few things that seem to be probably insurmountable obstacles to, to this.
Speaker B:Well, maybe, let me ask this.
Speaker B:We had the Test maze before the WTC kicked off.
Speaker B:Do we think there is maybe worth in bringing that back?
Speaker B: ike you know, South Africa in: Speaker B:Now obviously there was no final, there was no, you know, that moment where the trophy was presented to them and all of that.
Speaker B:But we think like obviously we are not able to, we won't be able to get to a point where every team plays every other team in equal number of games.
Speaker B:All of that is pretty hard considering all the, all the things you just mentioned, geopolitical things, historical series, all of that.
Speaker B:If we get to a point where we can get roughly the same number of home and away games, you know, if let's say India plays 20 games in total and South Africa plays 16, at least the ratio of home and away should be somewhat similar.
Speaker B:That's probably the best we can hope for.
Speaker B:Do you think like just bringing the Test maze back and you know, maybe just, I don't know how to, you know, bring it back into focus and give it more emphasis is probably the way to go.
Speaker B: not mean as much back in the: Speaker B:But we saw it being presented to England and South Africa and Australia and India over the years and they obviously celebrated it.
Speaker B:But it was nothing like the World Test Championship.
Speaker A:I think you need a final because I, I remember when India got the mace.
Speaker A: I think Virat Kohli got it: Speaker B:Think sometime in the first consecutive something like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I remember there was like a news like you know, Crick and Foe, there was like an article and there were like a couple of people talking about on social media, but it was almost like forgotten instantly.
Speaker A:It was like, okay, on to the next one.
Speaker A:The Next series or whatever the next tournament was.
Speaker A:It doesn't linger in your memory as much as the narrative of win in a final.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like the, you know, the.
Speaker A:Both the Test Championship finals when New Zealand won and Australia won, it was memorable.
Speaker A:People remember it even now.
Speaker A:Whereas something like just giving like a maze over, I just don't think it carries the same impact and it doesn't really register for anyone.
Speaker A:I don't even think for the players, they register, they're like, oh, cool, we're, you know, number one for a while and then they move on to the next one.
Speaker A:But if we are talking about tests as a format, competing with, you know, the T20s and the ODIs, then unfortunately it, or fortunately or unfortunately it does need something on the scale of a tournament final with probably the two best teams competing for it.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'd agree.
Speaker C:I think the World Test Championship has more meaning now than it did when it was just, you know, the, the mace awarded on.
Speaker C:On rankings.
Speaker C:So I don't think they should go back to that.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I just wonder.
Speaker C:Yeah, what.
Speaker C:What changes need to be made to, to make it fairer and make it kind of more likely that the best team wins it.
Speaker C:What do you guys think about two divisions?
Speaker B:Well, I, I definitely think it's.
Speaker B:I think my biggest challenge with two divisions is, you know, let's say we have a team like Afghanistan now, of course, they don't play a ton of Test cricket.
Speaker B:They, you know, they had a series against Bangladesh not, not too long ago, but apart from that, they're not constantly playing.
Speaker B:So I think the issue with that is, like, a.
Speaker B:Teams like that which have a Test team but don't play very often are just always going to be in Division 2.
Speaker B:So in my mind, to make those two divisions work, we need to have another level which is, you know, there used to be the Intercontinental Cup a long time back, which actually was a really great way to provide pathway for teams to eventually qualify for Test cricket.
Speaker B:You know, Ireland qualified through that method.
Speaker B:I'm not sure if I think Afghanistan did too, but I know Ireland definitely did.
Speaker B:So I think we would need to revive that Intercontinental cup to make two divisions work.
Speaker B:Otherwise it's going to be the same.
Speaker B:You know, five teams in the top one are moving down, one not moving up, and then we end up being in a situation where the top five teams, assuming that the first five are in the top one, but if it's top six, so be it.
Speaker B:But those five or six will keep getting stronger.
Speaker B:Well, they'll keep playing the Bigger teams and they'll actually make money from Test cricket because of the bigger teams visiting, while the others will just continue to drop off lower and lower.
Speaker B:So I think my issue with the two tier system is just the fact that they've removed the Intercontinental cup which was the pathway for associate teams to become Test teams.
Speaker B:If that is figured out, I definitely think that's something to be explored.
Speaker A:I do like the idea of divisions or like a two tiered table when it comes to the wtc especially because the, one of the biggest truths about Test cricket is it's never going to become popular in any country, any emerging nation, countries where they play or they're still.
Speaker A:Cricket is slowly getting popular.
Speaker A:It's never going to become popular outside of Australia, England, India to some extent, South Africa and New Zealand and maybe Pakistan.
Speaker A:So you have six teams and then you have Sri Lanka.
Speaker A:Okay, let's make it seven West Indies.
Speaker A:Test cricket is like dead, honestly.
Speaker A:You know, like Andre Russell spoke recently about like how Virat Kohli said even with the IPL win, Test cricket is still the ultimate.
Speaker A:And Russell said that's true for players from countries like India and England where they're taken care of and Test cricket has given a lot of importance.
Speaker A:But in the Caribbean, nobody cares.
Speaker A:I would rather win an IPL than a World Test Championship final or like, you know, multiple Test series.
Speaker A:So if we accept the fact that, okay, outside of maybe let's say six teams, Test cricket, not a big deal anywhere else, it becomes easier to divide it into two tables because now it's easier for.
Speaker A:This is my hypothetical scenario, okay, so let's say the WTC champion, the World's Championship is really between six teams.
Speaker A:The top six teams in each cycle and then the second table, you have essentially teams who are trying to qualify to the, trying to qualify for the next cycle to get into the top tier.
Speaker A:And then teams could get relegated to the second tier in the following cycle if they don't hit like a certain point or, you know, something.
Speaker A:And what it will do is if we limit it to six teams, then you could do a home and away and three or five Test series between these teams.
Speaker A:And like you said, man, you can even extend the cycle.
Speaker A:It doesn't have to be two years, it could be three or four years.
Speaker A:And I think in that span of three to four years, I think it's doable that these teams can play, these six teams can play each other home and away at a minimum of three tests.
Speaker A:So that way whichever two teams make it to the final like, you can't complain.
Speaker A:Everyone has played each other.
Speaker A:They play at home and away and they're playing at least three tests in each condition.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And these would feature the six teams who are really, who genuinely care about Test cricket and have made it to the final, versus teams that are just going through the motions.
Speaker A:Like, well, it's a World Test Championship and we are part of it, so let's play Test some.
Speaker A:Some Test cricket.
Speaker A:So that way, even like in the, in the second tier, maybe there will be countries that are now motivated, maybe West Indies, for instance, they'll be like, well, it's been a.
Speaker A:It's been a while since we won a major ICC trophy.
Speaker A:Let's do a push for the World Test Championship.
Speaker A:And they really work hard on their Test cricket and develop structures, really prioritize growing their players for the highest level and they could make it out of the bottom tier to the top tier and then in a couple of cycles, maybe even push for a win in the World's Championship.
Speaker A:So I, I do like the idea of divisions because it really separates its teams who are serious about Test cricket from the ones that, honestly, from.
Speaker A:Even from a financial sense, it makes.
Speaker A:From a financial perspective, it makes more sense for them to prioritize the limited overs.
Speaker C:I agree with everything you just said, Benny, wholeheartedly.
Speaker C:I think the one watch out is that we need to kind of think through quite carefully what the impact will be on those weaker teams, because they're gonna.
Speaker C:They're only gonna get better if they play against the stronger teams, right?
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And you see with talk about countries prioritizing Test cricket, one country which has totally turned around and, and really prioritized Test cricket is Zimbabwe.
Speaker C:I think they've got more tests scheduled this year than.
Speaker C:Than any other team, and they're really, obviously putting quite a lot of effort behind it.
Speaker C:And I think, you know, occasions like when they played England a couple of weeks ago are going to be really important for the development of that team.
Speaker C:So I just think there needs to be a.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's also financial things because, you know, Zimbabwe is not going to make the same amount of money playing Bangladesh as they were playing England or India.
Speaker B:So I think that is where, as much as I like the two divisions, I do think it'll have to be something like if, if six teams are in the top division, maybe one of the teams plays three of those and then three in the next division.
Speaker B:It'll have to be some mix so that, that next, next set of teams will have, you know, A chance of improving, a chance of making money with when they're hosting these bigger nations, all of that will have to happen because if it's financially negative, it's only so long before Zimbabwe says yeah, we're going to scrape and move away from Test cricket.
Speaker B:So I, I think that's where the challenge comes.
Speaker B:If we try to restrict the top six playing each other.
Speaker A:Well, I don't think it's necessary that, you know, the top six would just only play each other in that cycle.
Speaker A:Having, even during this, since the WTC cycles began, aren't there some series that don't really, the points or the games don't count towards the wtc?
Speaker A:I believe there are some I think especially like Zimbabwe or Afghanistan, Ireland maybe like some of the series don't count towards it.
Speaker A:So even if you play like one Test or two test series with these team, with these teams in between, all of the other, you know, the series that are actually counting towards the wtc, you're still kind of having it both ways of.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think there are only nine teams in the World Test Championship, aren't there?
Speaker C:So Zimbabwe, Afghanistan and Ireland are the, are three test playing nations who aren't in the, aren't in the championship.
Speaker C:I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker A:Even if they're playing like one off tests or two test series against these top teams every now and then, they're still getting some exposure.
Speaker A:So it's not like we're saying hey, you can only play against other bottom ranked teams, you would still play against the top teams, you're just not going to play those three or five test series.
Speaker C:Yeah, and, and that's what happens now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:They only ever play one off tests or, or at the most a two match series against the top teams anyway.
Speaker C:So yeah, you're right, that could continue.
Speaker B:Is there, are there any other, I mean obviously two tiers is one one aspect of it which should be considered.
Speaker B:But just assuming that the WTC goes on as it is, what are the other changes?
Speaker B:Obviously we talked about one being making sure that even if it's not exactly the same number of games, at least similar amount of games, similar variety of opposition, hopefully the same or similar ratio of home and away games.
Speaker B:That's one thing we talked about.
Speaker B:Are there any other tweaks that you would like to see with the existing WTC structure?
Speaker C:I've got one.
Speaker C:I think the slow over rates being penalized in the, in the championship table, in the world Test championship table is, is pointless and it doesn't, and it doesn't work.
Speaker C:It clearly doesn't work because teams get penalized all the time for slow overrates, so they obviously don't care.
Speaker A:Did this affect any team, Ben?
Speaker A:Is this why you're bringing.
Speaker C:Might have affected England slightly more than most other teams, which is why it's a, it's, it's an issue that's close to, closer to my heart than it might be to everyone else's.
Speaker C:But I think the slow over rates are the, a real bugbear of the game for me.
Speaker C:You know, if I've paid to see 90 overs of cricket, I want to see 90 overs of cricket.
Speaker C:I don't want to see 80 overs of cricket plus somebody tying their shoelaces for half an hour or having an unscheduled drinks break or, you know, moving the field around incessantly.
Speaker C:But I think a points penalty in the league table is never going to change behavior.
Speaker C:I think the way that you get rid of slow overweights and slow play is to have an in game penalty so reduce the likelihood of winning that game, which is actually being played right now.
Speaker C:So if the slow overweight translates into a runs penalty or you don't bowl your overs in that session, you lose a fielder for the next session or something like that, then you'd suddenly see Ben Stokes running between overs to get to the other end and start bowling rather than kind of dilly dallying and tying his shoelaces.
Speaker C:So I think that that would be the way to do it.
Speaker C:And that opens, if you solve the slow over rate problem, then that opens up the possibility of you can have four day tests with 100 overs a day or 110 overs a day, which, which then solves a lot of the scheduling issues that we were talking about.
Speaker C:If you could have, if you could have four day tests, you could play a three match series in two weeks, two and a half weeks, which then alleviates a lot of those scheduling issues.
Speaker C:Which means at the moment that you don't have enough time for everyone to play each other.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, that's definitely something I think is a little bit odd.
Speaker B:I mean even, you know, in other forms of cricket when in one days I believe if you are late on the overs bowled after a certain like two or three times the captain gets banned for a match.
Speaker B:That to me makes way more sense than reducing points on the table after the game is done.
Speaker B:That I, I definitely agree.
Speaker B:I think the one other thing that comes to mind is I don't know why England always hosts the WTC final.
Speaker B:I think that needs to change as well.
Speaker B:I think having, and again this could be like maybe the winner of the format is, you know, decides one of those, those countries picks a venue where it gets hosted.
Speaker B:So if Australia wins this time they, they pick Melbourne or Sydney to host it the next time.
Speaker B:Something like that would be good to consider as well.
Speaker B:You know, just like the World cup, it'll add a nice variety to the venues.
Speaker B:That, and then I think Ben, you talked about like potentially having a three match final that I can see how that can be tricky because you know, then teams are going to try to play a warm up game and all of a sudden it becomes a month long tour.
Speaker B:So it again takes a lot out of the cycle.
Speaker B:But having said that, I think we're moving to an era of more and more T20 specializations and things like that.
Speaker B:So I don't know, I feel like maybe 10 years down the line we might be at a point where that there's very little overlap between Test teams and T20 teams.
Speaker B:And maybe this is possible.
Speaker B:It doesn't, certainly doesn't look possible at this point, but 10 years from now, if India has maybe one or two stars who play both T20s and Test cricket, there's a good chance we could just have much longer series, much more cricket and there's another Indian team playing T20 somewhere.
Speaker A:I'll just comment on a couple of things.
Speaker A:Well, first of all, I don't love the idea of four day test.
Speaker A:I know for logistical reasons it might make more sense and you can get more games in, more series in.
Speaker A:I think it's one leap too far.
Speaker A:I think it will just change the character of Test matches in general because unless teams adjust their style of pay and their pace and their tempo, you're going to see a lot of draws and then the Test championship incentivizes wins.
Speaker A:You need points, which means teams are going to just play, have to play faster.
Speaker A:And I, I just don't know, I don't know, maybe I'm just old school, maybe I'm just so used to how test cricket has always been.
Speaker A:Maybe like younger fans and maybe the next five, ten years people's ideas or you know, attitudes will change about that.
Speaker A:But for me I think it's hard to accept that shortening a day.
Speaker A:The other thing about venues too, I think it'll be good but I do get the rational for why it's being hosted in England.
Speaker A:I, I think the idea is of all the countries out there, I think more often than not England, you know, venues in England can guarantee a full house regardless of which team comes out in place.
Speaker A:Now if a tournament, if the WTC final, let's say, is hosted in India and India is not in the final, I don't think you're gonna get too many people coming to the ground to, to watch it.
Speaker A:I, I think I'll revive the one idea.
Speaker A:I, I told you Mike, I think when we spoke about the same thing probably like a year ago or two years ago is the team that has the most points should get to host the final like in that cycle.
Speaker A:So if Australia got the most points in this cycle, as I think they did, the final would be in Australia.
Speaker A:So they have at least some benefit to having got the most points in the cycle.
Speaker A:I can see like where South Africa could grumble about it, but I think it's one way to have some variety and actually have people turn up at the ground rather than hosting it at a venue where if the host country doesn't make it, you're not going to have.
Speaker A:And I think England too can produce more of a fair condition compared to any other country.
Speaker A:So I don't know.
Speaker A:I'm open to it being hosted elsewhere, but I think you run the risk of not having a full ground for it.
Speaker B:I think I do want to explore your comment about 4 day test though.
Speaker B:I, I don't know if we'll get a lot more draws, especially the way Test cricket is played nowadays with extremely bowler friendly wickets.
Speaker B:I feel like we have games get over, you know, so many games get over before the end of fourth day.
Speaker B:So that is one aspect.
Speaker B:And of course the dynamic of the game will change a lot.
Speaker B:You know, if you're bowling 100 overs in a day compared to 90, it'll be a much longer day.
Speaker B:Tactics will be different.
Speaker B:Like teams will probably not.
Speaker B:Even if it's a flat wicket, they're probably not trying to score 600, maybe they'll try to score 500 instead of 6.
Speaker B:So like that I think tactically also it's going to change quite a bit which is why I do think four day Test is something that needs to be tried because again it's one of those things where if it's Thursday to Monday, there's a good chance that if it's hosted in the city that I'm in or around I can take one day off and experience three days of cricket.
Speaker B:So that brings more spectators in even viewership wise.
Speaker B:You know, people can, can plan to just take, you know, half a day off even if they're watching from Home and, and watch a lot more.
Speaker B:And then the other aspect to it is, I think night test is something that has to be considered as well.
Speaker B:Because, I mean, as much as I would love to keep the format as it is and, you know, keep the tradition going, the truth is, apart from these three nations, it's not making money anywhere.
Speaker B:So if we try to hold on to that tradition, we might end up losing the format altogether over a long period.
Speaker B:So I think in my mind, that's why we have to consider four day and night cricket, just to make sure that crowds come in.
Speaker B:And I think that might also open up the ability to host test matches in certain seasons.
Speaker B:So, for example, India obviously gets really hot in the summer.
Speaker B:May, June, July are not seasons when you typically host, I mean, specific venues maybe, but most of the country cannot host a full test match.
Speaker B:If you host it at night, maybe that opens up certain venues.
Speaker B:So I think that also opens up the duration when you can host these longer series with more opponents.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm very much with you in terms of being a traditionalist, particularly when it comes to test cricket.
Speaker C:But I also think that if we don't make sensible evolution to it, then it's in danger of dying altogether outside those three big countries, and I think that would be a real shame.
Speaker C:So I think some innovation is going to be necessary and I think we should try some of this stuff, try four days of 100 AVAs each and continue to try day, night tests and develop that pink ball so that it maybe doesn't swing ridiculously under the lights and try and get it as close to the red ball as we can make it and make day, night tests a bit more of a fixture.
Speaker B:There's one other idea that I, I just thought of and, and this is kind of left field, so ignore it if you, if you think this is crazy.
Speaker B:But I remember the Champions Trophy when it, I think it started as the ICC Knockout trophy and, and the whole idea there was to host it in nations which don't play cricket as much.
Speaker B:So I believe the first one was either Kenya or.
Speaker B:I think it was Kenya that hosted.
Speaker C:It was Kenya.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I think it was Kenya that hosted the first one and thought there was, hey, we're gonna come and try to spread the game.
Speaker B:Obviously the Champions Trophy has been completely changed and now only the top eight teams play.
Speaker B:So it's, it's different.
Speaker B:But one thing I remember is, you know, when the T20 World cup came to the US or even when we are seeing associate cricket happen in Nepal, we see thousands and thousands of fans turn up and they're watching from the stadium, from trees outside the stadium.
Speaker B:And there's all this passion in certain countries.
Speaker B:Nepal is a really good example, but I'm sure there's other countries out there which are fond of cricket.
Speaker B:So maybe another thing to explore is have these bigger countries play one off games in countries like Nepal just to see, just to give them a taste of Test cricket, see how, what the response is.
Speaker B:And maybe that also inspires one better facilities.
Speaker B:Because if they're trying to host some of these bigger nations, they'll have to spend on good facilities, grounds, all of that.
Speaker B:And that in turn can be used for the grassroots, for development of younger players and players for the future.
Speaker B:So that's something worth considering.
Speaker B:Am I going to hold my breath for ICC to do it?
Speaker B:Maybe not, but.
Speaker B:But yeah, I think, I think that'd be a pretty interesting piece because even when Nepal played their games in Dallas for the T20 World cup, it was always bagged.
Speaker B:Although Dallas is a smaller ground, but the stadiums were always packed with really passionate Nepal fans.
Speaker A:I was just trying to wrap my head around that.
Speaker C:Yeah, me too.
Speaker A:I just don't know if it'll work in test cricket though.
Speaker A:Maybe like for the other formats.
Speaker A:If you're, if you're talking from the perspective of growing the game, right, Mike?
Speaker A:Like making it popular.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:I mean, I think, you know, obviously T20 is the easy way to go and expand to a new country, but there are already some countries which in my mind land between that 12 that play Test cricket and you know, 20 onwards.
Speaker B:Like maybe 12 to 20 is Netherlands, Nepal, Scotland, Ireland, like countries of.
Speaker B:Ireland is probably top 12, but Namibia, Namibia.
Speaker B:So all these countries have a good understanding of cricket and that doesn't mean that every person on the street knows the game, but I think that might be just a way to give them a taste of the sport, see what the response is like.
Speaker B:And obviously that doesn't change any of the facts around how much it costs to host one of these.
Speaker B:And all of that will figure it out.
Speaker C:But it would have to be subsidized quite heavily, wouldn't it, by the icc.
Speaker C:And I think they would, that you'd need to make sure that they were able to produce a surface that was good enough for Test cricket and good enough to last five days as well.
Speaker C:But if you could overcome those, and you could with enough money spent on it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:It's a good idea.
Speaker A:So growth of the game versus financial profit.
Speaker A:I think we know which direction the ICC will go towards.
Speaker A:All right, I think we could wrap up the discussion here, but I did want to get your guys's thoughts on the WTC final that's set to start next week.
Speaker A:South Africa versus Australia.
Speaker A:How do you guys see it going?
Speaker B:South Africa is definitely the underdog, but, but yeah, it would be, it would be nice to see them win.
Speaker B:Especially you know, with all the news of certain players retiring and moving away from the South African game.
Speaker B:Almost, you know, as, as a neutral, it's almost like, yeah, you want them to have a nice big win and maybe that inspires a few more cricketers.
Speaker B:But, but yeah, I do think Australia is in really good form maybe for, with the exception of one or two top order batters and maybe one of the openers, which is who is still finding their feet, they're overall in really good form.
Speaker B:So I do think Australia is going to clinch it.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm very much inclined to agree.
Speaker C:I think, you know, Australia are strong favorites for it.
Speaker C:They're the right favorites.
Speaker C:They've been the stronger team over the cycle.
Speaker C:That said, I was looking at the likely starting 11 for South Africa earlier and, and thinking, wow, they, if, if a few of those players have a, have a good day, they can, they could really contend.
Speaker C:You know, you've got Rabada, Janssen, great, great bowlers.
Speaker C:They could on their day, in the right conditions, they could run through any top order and you know, get Australia 50 for 5 on the first morning, anything can happen.
Speaker C:So yeah, you couldn't write South Africa off, but I do think Australia are probably too strong for them.
Speaker A:I think it'll be Australia as well, just because I don't think South Africa has the batting for this to be an even contest.
Speaker A:Maybe I'm being a little pessimistic, but as much as I would love South Africa to win, I think Australia are just a little too strong and they're more well rounded than South Africa are at this point.
Speaker A:I think South Africa's future, you know, based on the potentials they have, you know, based on the talent of the young players, I think in a few years they'll be, you know, really good.
Speaker A:They'll be settled and, you know, they'll be ready.
Speaker A:But at this point in time, I think Australia are, are just like in a great position overall.
Speaker A:Be at the WTC final or not, you put them against any team in any condition, I think they're always going to be favorites.
Speaker A:So I think it's going to be Australia.
Speaker A:But I do really hope for a good contest because the IPO is fun, but there's only so much sixes and fours and all the sponsor names you can hear before you're like, you know what?
Speaker A:I just want to see people playing in whites with, you know, very polite claps here and there.
Speaker A:So I'm looking forward not just to the WTC final, but also to India's tour of England.
Speaker A:And, Ben, I hope we can get you back on to talk about that when we get closer to that.
Speaker C:I'd love to.
Speaker C:That would be fantastic.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Well, on that note, thanks again, Ben, for joining us today.
Speaker A:And to our listeners, please do check out Ben's article which prompted this discussion.
Speaker A:We'll post a link in our episode show notes.
Speaker A:But for now, we'll say goodbye and we'll talk to you soon.
